[linrad] Re: gcc 4.0.x / lir01-35 ; Re: [linrad] Re: Linrad on a Debian System ??

[Ramiro Aceves <ea1abz@xxxxxxxxx>]

w3sz wrote:
> HI Zaba,
> 
> Thanks for the interesting note.  You are much more adventurous than I
> am.  ;)
> 
> I have just a few observations which are triggered by your note about
> your  troubles [with which I greatly sympathize] and my recent 'fun'
> engendered  by the latest svgalib update to 1.9.23:
> 
> 
> 
> I am of the opinion that upgrading/updating operating systems in
> general  is fraught with problems.  Linux is 'worse' than most in this
> regard, as  it is non-commercial and we are exposed to 'new' versions
> before they have  been fully vetted / tested.  If it were a commercial


I see that as an advantage instead of an issue, as many people can test
the software before it reaches the stable state. But it depends on you
to live on the "beta" world.

A Debian stable system is by far much more stable than a windows one. I
have experienced very weird things on windows XP computers at the
University. A knoppix system is a good tool as a rescue disk or a demo
disk, but I do not consider it a tool for serious work. Even worse if
you choose to upgrade knoppix packages. People complains about the
Debian long release cicle, but if we want stability Debian can not
realese a new version every 6 months.

> product, more testing  would occur before the vendor would let the new
> versions see the light of  day.  We are all 'beta testers' or worse.  No
> commercial venture would  survive if its updates were as problematic as
> those of Linux.  Of course,  no comercial venture would make such raw
> and buggy updates available to  its customers.  I am speaking here of
> the Linux operating system and its  utilities, NOT of Linrad.  I have NO
> complaints there.  Leif has spent  incredible amounts of time working on
> Linrad for us.  He has spent a huge  amount of time because changes in
> the Linux base have caused problems with  Linrad code that previously
> worked very well.  He is a victim of Linux as  much as we are, although
> I know that he would never agree to defining the  issue that way ;)
> 
> The solution is to use only a stable version of the operating system
> such  as 'Sarge' in Debian, and to avoid the temptation to experiment. 

You are absolutely right.


> One may  say 'but what fun is that?'.  One could say that we can't
> really complain  if we are using the experimental versions of the
> software.  Even all of  the 1.9.x versions of svgalib are officially
> 'experimental'.  I know that  you know this Zaba, but some list readers
> may not.  The problem as you  know is that in many cases, the
> 'official'  and 'stable' Linux releases  don't contain the device
> drivers to work with even moderately new  hardware.  So one is 'forced'
> to use the experimental versions.

Sure it is fun, and as you say, sometimes we are forced to use
experimental versions to support new hardware. But Linux allow us to do
incredible things. We can compile everything, even we can tune the
kernel and compile it to match our needs (can we do it under Windows?).
We can fix security issues very quickly, within hours. Sometimes the
advantage of being able to tweak operating system internals becomes an
issue if we try to tune everything.

> 
> What I say also goes also for all of the Linux utilities that we 
> use...svgalib, gcc, and all of their components.
> 
> 
> 
> I am using nothing newer than gcc 3.3.5 to my knowledge, and have not 
> encountered these problems.  I have no reason to upgrade gcc from that 
> version.  In fact, your experience shows that I have a reason NOT to 
> upgrade/update ;)

Right, if it works, do not break it! hi

> See above.  This is called 'Open Source'.  Microsoft has a very big and 
> valid point when they make their marketing comments regarding problems 
> with Linux that are in this vein.


> 
> As you know, Zaba, it is NOT Linrad trouble, and it is beyond Leif's 
> control.  This is because it is LINUX trouble, and no one can fix it as
> it  is due to the Open Source, 'anyone can contribute' [well not really
> but  you know what I mean] nature of Linux.  You can avoid it to a great
> extent  by using only stable versions of the programs and Linux OS, but
> then you  have the problem that the device drivers in those old versions
> are usually  very much out of date and won't work with even moderately
> new hardware.   RIGHT NOW we are in a very good position in this regard
> with Debian, as  Sarge as only relatively recently moved from 'testing'
> to 'stable', and so  it is stable but has most of the even-very-recent
> device drivers in it.   But as we get further out from the date of its
> being 'locked down', there  will be more and more new hardware that
> won't have device drivers in Sarge.

Right, but as soon as "etch" is coming and sarge getting outdated, we
can do a gradual migration to it from "sarge". I have done it 8 months
before "sarge" release from "woody" and it worked well.

> 
> I remain ANYTHING but a Linux fan for all of the reasons you note,
> Zaba.   I put up with Linux ONLY because Leif has written the best SDR /
> software  receiver program in the world, and right now, it runs only on
> Linux.   Nothing else would convince me to put up with Linux.  I have
> enough else  that I need to do and like to do that I don't need the
> 'hobby' of making  Linux work to fill up my free time ;)
> 
> It is my belief that with the Windows version, once it is debugged, we 
> won't have these problems, because it will be run on a stable and 
> relatively unchanging OS platform with stable drivers.
> 
> Those are just my thoughts.  I know that others strongly disagree. 
> Those  that disagree tend to be much more computer saavy than I, and
> much  smarter, and they tend to like playing with software, so that
> these  problems don't take them so long to solve, and they actually
> enjoy the  process.  At this point, I just want to use my radio
> [LINRAD].  :)

Yes, we strongly disagree (I am only and average linux user), but I do
not want to start religion  OS wars on Linrad email list. ;-) I admit
that Windows and Linux have their pros and cons, but for me Linux has
got by far more pros that cons. Sure that Windows is better for you and
most people. Anyway, it is a good thing having the ability of choose.


73,Ramiro. EA1ABZ.



> 
> 73,
> 
> Roger
> W3SZ
> 


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